Not long ago, a young man named Justin Kardel, who was totally unknown to me, approached me via Twitter and asked if I’d consider featuring an essay of his. Now, my initial reaction was to decline; a lot of strangers ask me to publish their stuff, and if I did that I wouldn’t have room for much else. But something in his quiet, respectful manner captured my attention, and when I read his essay I found it a well-written and thoughtful look at a topic which isn’t discussed often enough: rape in which the victim is male.
Just over two years ago, on October 31st, 2013, I was raped by a man I had recently started dating. We had only gone on one other date and he was a perfect gentleman; he constantly complimented my looks and my style, we had great conversation and he seemed kind and considerate. He even paid the check, which is quite the godsend for a starving graduate student. So we decided to go out to a club for Halloween. I remember being handed a lot of drinks but I don’t particularly remember him having many; however, I was paying more attention to the costumes, the beautiful young men and women in the club, and dancing.
When last call came, we went to his place, where he continued to give me mixed drinks (constantly topping them off with 1800 tequila). He started kissing me, and I felt somewhat uneasy about it but went along without saying anything; I was lit and not really able to voice my concerns. Then he pulled out his penis and attempted to force me to perform oral sex on him. I protested and refused, but he kept trying, pleading and cajoling me until I eventually acquiesced. And then he raped me. At first it seemed normal; I didn’t enjoy it, but they are all different and you never know what it will really be like with a new partner during the first one. In my inebriated state, I thought the reason I didn’t enjoy it was because he was an incompetent lover; I was upset that he couldn’t satisfy me and I was angry that he went through with all this trouble without being able to seal the deal. But the next day I knew it was much more than that, so I blocked his number and purposely attempted to forget his name and face. After about a month I had largely succeeded, or so I thought; I had a sense that the incident might qualify as a sexual assault, but I convinced myself that it hadn’t affected me. Furthermore, I’ve suffered from worse assaults, like the time I was stabbed by an acquaintance; in that case I didn’t go to the police or even tell anyone for years because I took the attack as a strong sign that I needed to leave that circle of friends. Additionally, I didn’t want to waste my time and risk interaction with the police, nor did I really want to see him put in jail as I do not believe in the effectiveness of incarceration at preventing crime or reforming criminals. I felt the same way about the sexual assault, only more so.
Anyway, I didn’t think much about the incident, at least not consciously, until I was dumped by my girlfriend recently; since I really loved her and thought we had a great relationship, I started reexamining my past lovers to see if I could get an idea of what I had been doing wrong. When I did, my assailant shot to the front of my mind and I immediately recognized what I had denied for so long: I had been raped. I was devastated, and didn’t know who to tell (if anyone); I pride myself on my independence and I felt he had taken away my sexual agency because I haven’t been attracted to men ever since the rape. Also, I am a large, 6’5” male and should have been capable of warding off a man 7″ shorter and 60 pounds lighter than me; even given that, I was unable to stop him and became his accomplice during the rape. That fact has been very hard to deal with; even though I know the sentiment is retrograde, I cannot help but feel that I’m less worthy as a victim because I should have been able to resist. Eventually I started talking to one of my most trustworthy, easy-to-talk-to and open-minded friends, and then came the tears. I was finally able to accept it. It. Wasn’t. My. Fault.
I was violated, but it didn’t diminish my value as a human being. I may have been robbed of some of my sexuality, but we change as we age and grow and I don’t think I will be any less happy for that in the long run; to believe and act any differently would just give more power to his sexual violence. It’s water under the bridge—the best thing to do is not to hang onto the past, especially when there is nothing you can do to erase it. I forgave him, but only for my sake; I will never see or hear from him again and he will probably ever admit that he raped me. But I don’t particularly care. Prison wouldn’t solve anything, and the courts are loath to prosecute date rape cases and even less likely to prosecute homosexual rape. I forgave him so I would not carry that grudge, the kind of grudge that can corrode one’s heart, mind and soul; I know too many who have, and their lives are diminished by it.
But even given all that, I wanted to write this article because of the dearth of conversation on the rape of males in America. I hesitated for so long because of the stigma associated with it, but I think my story and those of thousands of other sexually-abused men must be told. Much like other marginalized groups such as sex workers, the only way to get any change in this country starts with wide exposure. It’s true that far fewer men report being raped than women; the CDC does not even report numbers for male rape, and men report sexual abuse at a rate only 58% that of women. But this is still a massive number of people, and is surely hugely under-reported because the stigma against men claiming they were raped is even worse than it is for women; furthermore, it does not include the most widely known type of male rape: prison rape. Over 200,000 men are sexually assaulted in prison every year, and the popular response is another hoary old “don’t drop the soap” joke or a statement that it is justified by their conviction for a crime. It’s sick how popular this sentiment is; rape rates in prison approach or even surpass those in sub-Saharan African war zones, yet few care because they think men who get raped are not “real men” and prisoners deserve that kind of treatment anyhow. It’s disgusting, and it’s got to change. I forgave my rapist so I could move on to do better things and live a fulfilling life. But I will never forget him, and he will forever inform me of the extreme brutality and trauma of rape, and why it must be addressed honestly and effectively. And for that I thank him.
a few years back, I met a personal trainer who would always invite me to go drinking with him. I’d tell him I’m not much of a drinker and instead of being like “okay” he’d try to pressure me, saying there would be tons of hot chicks there, etc, etc. Something felt off about this, if he wanted a drinking buddy, he could go to any watering hole and drink with whomever was at the bar. Needless to say I went out of my way to avoid him.
In high school the “cool guys” would invite one of the outcasts to hang out with them. The would usually get the outcast drunk and then humiliate him. One of the stories was that they got one of the outcasts really drunk and told him a hot chick was going to “take care of him” and to get ready as a porno was playing. They all came back in and laughed at him as he was wanking to the porno. Another story was that one of the outcasts got assraped prison style. I don’t know the veracity of the stories but when I was invited to “hang” I declined.
I’m not a very sociable person and unfortunately a few times when another guy seemed to want to be my friend, he might act all macho and brag how many chicks he laid but then he’d start acting gay when he had a few drinks. There’s allot of “downlow” guys out there. I suppose some just want to be who they are without being judged by society. But others really aren’t cool at all. I don’t associate with gay men or form friendships with them. Obviously stating that all gay men are rapists is like stating that all men are rapists and since I’m no feminist, I won’t make that claim. However, in progressive America, one is labelled a bigot if they state they don’t want to associate with gays.
I get really uncomfortable when someone offers me a shot of hard liquor and I politely decline. Then they say “Drink it pussy.” Sometimes I’ll throw it and say “if you got a problem throw a punch otherwise fuck off.” And then I avoid them.
I knew a few guys in HS and I think some faggot (yes I used an unpolitcally correct term) got their hands on them and assraped them. One was one of the guys invited to the “cool guy party.” They seemed to have a bit off shell shock to them. Unfortunately, you can’t say any of this around a liberal, feminist or MRA-you will be called the thing worse than racist and almost as bad as misogynist-that’s homophobe.
I understand and sympathize with your sentiments despite the invective. There is tons of predatory sexual behavior in every community, and it’s nearly completely ignored in some like the homosexual community.
There’s nothing wrong with queers though! We don’t bite unless you ask! I have definitely received more hostile sexual attention from men then women though, and it has always made me a reluctant bisexual.
something Paul Elam’s joke of a site A Voice for Men will never talk about:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/3/gay-rape-military-underreported-pentagon/?page=all
And feminism won’t either.
Thanks for sharing this article. I had no idea, but I am not in the least bit surprised.
It’s ironic, and might make me sound unmanly but my homophobia, and yes, I admit many would consider me homophobic is not a hatred of “feminine men” but a fear of a big man trying to sodomize me. That is in direct contrast to what many feminist’s say-that homophobia is really misogyny because it is a hatred of feminine men. When I was growing up, my uncle used to tell me to stay outta trouble because they would love me in prison and I would be made into a b*tch. I just wanted to bring that up because that is so different from the official narrative.
Yeah I totally get it. It is rough when a stereotype that only exposes the worst elements of a community can be backed up by some evidence. I don’t judge you for your homophobia, I know I have some from getting raped and I’m even bi!
here’s Clarey’s fake ass apology…
again, he demanded they show their faces and they mentioned they wanted to remain anon, he kept on demanding info and threw it all over the net once he had it. These guys are more dishonorable than feminist’s…
Sorry if the above comment makes no sense…
It was meant for another blog, don’t know if it was user error or a bug as I replied from my wordpress blog.
It was in relation to a nasty doxxing incident where some alt right/manosphere bloggers attacked men who never advocate violence against anyone.
Is there some basis in verifiable fact for those accusations against MRAs ? With citation ? Just curious. And isn’t it rather unfair to malign a community not for something they but for something they don’t ? Unless you’ve tried to broach the subject and been rejected, of course.
feminist’s often state-feminism helps men. Sorry, not really, if they do help men it is “collateral damage.” IE something meant to help women inadvertently helped men. Rad fems tend to be honest about this-feminism is a movement to liberate women (and to hell with men.) Liberal feminist’s tend to try to get men on their team, take a look at a terrible website called The Good Men Project. Then when men say why feminism doesn’t help them they get called misogynists…
now onto M(h)RA’s…
I’ve got several complaints….
They talk about how women rape men-rare but it happens and ironically it usually involves hard liquor like the story above.
M(h)RA’s keep on talking about how women victimize men–and there is allot to be discussed here. Probably should start with mothers hurting their sons….
However back to the issue at hand….
many have critqued M(h)RA’s for turning men’s rights into feminism for men. I could leave many links or tell you to research this for yourself…
however, I will say that my personal dealings with Paul Elam showed him to be arrogant, shoot first and ask questions later and condescending to men whom he “claims to help.”
So I will leave you a link to where I had issues with him personally….
https://stonerwithaboner.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/sometimes-im-not-so-articulate-but-sometimes-somethings-should-just-be-left-to-fail/
Then I’ll say just look at M(h)RA’s writings-they won’t acknowledge the elephant in the room-how men victimize other men. I could drop tons of (non feminist) links critical of MRA’s or just leave it here because we are going way off topic…
This is not necessarily a gender thing, but you have made good points.
I was forcibly raped when stone sober by a female house-guest once. I woke up with my hands pinned to my headboard, my pants down and an involuntary erection. She was the kind of crazy that would have gone back and picked up a knife if I didn’t say yes. For some reason it was not very traumatic but it was rape nonetheless.
Feminism has helped me greatly here. The only people who have been supportive have been female feminists who have welcomed me into their ‘sisterhood of rape’ with open arms. I think men demonize feminists too much to realize the real common cause men and women share with respect to their sexual rights.
well, I’m glad you had a pleasant experience interacting with feminists, mine hasn’t been though.
It wasn’t pleasant at first! It took a lot of time learning the language. I probably never would have come there without having 4 strong sisters, around whom this type of discussion was unavoidable!
Unfortunately that has been one of the problems-feminist’s demand that you talk to them on their terms and with their lingo. A few years back, I discovered the man-0-sphere. At first I thought it might be the answer but then I realized their talk of red pill/blue pill was just as frustrating as a feminist’s talk of patriarchy. (and there were many other things that I didn’t agree with them upon such as right wing politics and HBD.)
Agreed. I don’t really run in their circles because it’s too tiring as a man. The whole “it’s not my duty to educate you” thing is beguiling.
I didn’t intend to malign the MRA community and if I did I apologize. Could you please point out where I did for me, I am not very well versed in the MRA movement. Although I share a lot of concerns with MRAs, the general level of discourse, the arguments made from evolutionary imperative with vaguely eugenicist sounding arguments, and the ever constant homophobia and racism really turn me off. I cannot associate with MRAs as a honest, black, bi man. It’s a pity really.
You did not, and so needn’t apologize. I was addressing stoner. However, I have yet to witness social darwinism, racism or homophobia in the MRA sources I’ve been reading. Then again, I haven’t been at it for very long, and the main source of reading I do (the rest is youtube vids) is A Voice For Men, where homophobia, racism and misogyny are expressly banned. And several prominent contributors are gay. I wonder if, perhaps, you didn’t read masculinist, MGTOW, or even Pick Up Artists sources, whose discourses often overlap with MRA’s, but are still distinct from it.
Thank you. Again all my experience comes from exposure to self labeled MRAs in popular culture, twitter, Reddit and so on. I only have so much intellectual bandwidth and with the initial exposure I got to it I decided to pass on it. I’m happy to hear there is something there, maybe I’ll check it out later!
Well, this is not the place for this discussion, but you can certainly shoot me an email.
I’m comfortable discussing it here if you care to. I feel the stigma around discussing it is the worst part of rape, and I’d prefer to do it openly. My email is on my blog which is linked at the top of the post.
Are you addressing me, Justin ? If so, I prefer open discussion as well, but by “not the place” I meant that this is Maggie’s blog, and furthermore that discussions about MRAs are off-topic.
Yes. I have no interest in bringing up MRAs because they really have less than no bearing on this topic. I do not associate with them at all.
Quentin,
I think it appeared like you were addressing justinkardel when you were addressing my comment due to the formatting.
yes, we did go off tangent a bit though. So maybe this isn’t the place to discuss it. (You might want to ignore my response to Eivind Berge
I can’t believe you published this feminist drivel on this otherwise excellent blog. Rape by cajoling and acquiescing and by his own admission becoming an accomplice in the “rape”? Rape by retrograde sentiment after internalizing feminist theory? This man didn’t resist to the best of his ability, or hardly at all, and neither was he threatened with serious injury, so it was not rape by any reasonable definition.
Um when you are in a bad neighborhood where the cabs don’t come and you don’t know if the guy is going to reach for a knife or a gun in the other room if you don’t agree to sex, your priorities change awful quick. I’d rather be raped than dead.
I understand how this must have been a concern, but by that principle, isn’t all sex had in a bad neighborhood rape ?
Most decidedly not Quentin. I’ve had plenty of consensual sex in bad neighborhoods and have been raped in a good one. It all comes down to consent. This was pretty plain Jane date-rape, and is not nearly as exiting or traumatic seeming as forcible rape, but comes with it’s attendant psychological difficulties. It’s the most common form of rape too.
I earnestly don’t want to upset you, Justin, but it seems to me that this was your rebuttal to Berge’s admittedly cantankerous argument that the man essentially guilt-tripped you. If he did not present any identifiable or explicit threat, either in his advances or his plying you with alcohol, then I must admit that I am circumspect as to whether what happened constitutes rape or not. The man was clearly an over-bearing asshole but persistence – which is what I perceive was the sum of his behavior – does not equal coercion. (I am also unfamiliar with the term “Jane date rape”, so I might have missed something.)
Oh sorry. I just meant that it was date rape. Linky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape
Whether or not you believe it is rape is not terribly important to me, it’s just a word. I believe it is though.
Imagining the possibility of a knife doesn’t incriminate the guy who didn’t use one or threaten you with one. It is unclear if the man who “raped” you even realized he was forcing you, and judging by your description of the events he probably didn’t because it was indistinguishable from you simply giving in to his pleading. If you want the law to consider sex obtained by cajolery rape, then you are as bad as any feminist.
You are a gay man who had bad sex. Deal with it. It is your kinds of unreasonable accusations that give rape accusers (and feminists) a bad name. Since you don’t claim to have been too drunk to consent, the law in your jurisdiction probably doesn’t even consider this rape yet (which is why feminists are still lobbying to expand rape law to cover your type of situation).
I am as bad as any feminist (small f) because I am one. I am not asking for new laws or punishment for the offender, as you would have noticed if you had read my post. Yes I am (was at least) a bisexual man who had bad sex. The bad sex was rape. I did not consent. I would probably have been considered too drunk to consent but I did not want to present it that way. Dozens of people have been sent to prison for similar actions. The courts won’t solve this problem and I don’t want a pound of flesh. I want awareness. Please read before you comment next time.
That’s essentially my position, with the caveat that the alcohol consumed calls into question Justin’s ability to express himself, let alone consent at the time. Also, a person being unaware that they are committing rape doesn’t disculp them. It’s unawareness that consent was denied that does that. I would also add -though it doesn’t obligate you in any way- that your tone does you argument a disservice.
dude, re-read the article, he didn’t want police involved or the man arrested.
I understand that Justin didn’t want the man punished, but the story still sounded like an endorsement of the kind of rape law that would have had him convicted.
If instead he just wanted to discuss bad sex and rude behavior or something like that, then I am much more sympathetic. But then it shouldn’t be presented as a rape story.
Fair enough. Reasonable people can disagree on what rape actually is. I believe I was raped, I understand my view of rape to be fairly commonly held, and I do not believe the term is necessary in order to discuss this issue. The main point I mean to make is that consent is also a very important issue for men as well and violations of consent can have long lasting psychological effects. Using the word rape makes the story much more intelligible and easier to write at the cost of excluding some readers and playing on prejudice.
And that you’re willing to make those distinctions does you credit. (Yes, it sounds patronizingly pedant, but I find this behaviour to uncommon not to praise it when I see it.)
I’m a pedant at heart so I cannot fault you.
Mr. Berge, somewhere between the extremes you and Typhone Blue present there may be truth. Unfortunately, I think that both you and Typhone Blue are doing more harm than good. And if you don’t remember, we discussed this at Ginko’s MRA website gendderratic.
I do of course acknowledge the possibility of homosexual rape, but this does not fit the definition. Typhon Blue is a deranged feminist who also claims women should be prosecuted for raping men, and I categorically disagree with that. Female sexual coercion is too trivial for the law to be concerned with, and even this accuser supports that idea when he says he was also raped by a female, but it wasn’t traumatic. Yet he wants to consider it rape because he has internalized feminist theory which says the sexes are equal. So it amounts to pure technicalities as usual, and for those you want women to spend many years in prison just to make things equal. I am not sure this accuser is even credible or just a feminist troll, but even if he is telling the truth, neither of his accusations can be taken seriously as rape.
Berge : How is female sexual coercion trivial ?
If female sexual coercion wasn’t trivial, patriarchy would have come up with laws against it before feminists invented gender neutral rape laws in the late 20th century. And still, even with those laws and a system willing to use them most men would never dream of going to the police and accuse a woman of rape, because female sexual coercion is perceived as a trivial offense for deep biological reasons. It is a ridiculous category error to pretend it is the same as rape, or worthy of anywhere near the same punishment.
Women shouldn’t be given a free pass when they commit violence, of course, but the sexual aspect is never relevant. Men don’t lose anything more by being forced to have sex with a woman than by being assaulted nonsexually by her, because there is simply nothing men have sexually that women can meaningfully violate.
Berge : patriarchy is a descriptor for the customs that govern the formal ways of civilization. It does “come up” with anything. And you’re asserting – asserting, mind you, and in no way demonstrating – that recognizing female sexual coercion as rape would be impractical. Not that isn’t, in fact, rape. As for your claim that men don’t lose anything by being sexually assaulted by a woman, beyond the fact that it’s an unfalsifiable claim, it also calls into question just what women have that can be violated by a man, doesn’t it ? (The answer being, in all case, bodily integrity and agency.)
This is where we fundamentally disagree: When a woman is raped, the damaged can’t merely be summed up as a violation of her bodily integrity and agency. It is much worse. Women have, I believe, evolved adaptations associated with rape avoidance, and one result is that rape is uniquely traumatizing, more so than a comparable violent attack. Men, on the other hand, have had no reason to evolve comparable adaptations with regard to female sexual coercion. Being forced to have sex with a woman is just another free reproductive opportunity for a man, biologically speaking, so why on earth would it be particularly traumatizing? Treating it as an especially heinous crime makes no sense, and all our behavior is consistent with this view, aside from some very recent and peculiar feminist theorizing.
Have you ever been coerced into sex by a psychotic, violent female with military training that you are not attracted to? It’s pretty traumatic. Biology isn’t everything. Psychology is important too.
I don’t dispute that female sexual coercion can be a traumatic experience, but I doubt the sexual aspect makes it any more traumatizing than being otherwise violently attacked and forced to do something you don’t want to do. Is the fact that she is having sex with you really an incredibly aggravating factor, like it would be when a man rapes a woman or man?
If you answer yes to this question, one possibility is that I am wrong, and if so I would like to see some more evidence than the blind feminist assertion that the sexes are equal. Another possibility is that you haven’t understood how traumatizing real rape is, and why it is punished much more severely than comparable nonsexual assaults.
Yes and no. The fact that it was a female felt emasculating because I was stronger and would be more typically seen as the aggressor in this situation. The fact that my body was ready for sex when it was the last thing I wanted was hard to handle, whereas with the man I only became aroused when I was physically stimulated. The main reason I wasn’t that traumatized by the female rapist is that I was sober and knew she could have killed me if I hadn’t complied. I really did nothing wrong. With the guy I got too drunk and too trusting and maybe I could have overpowered him. It also mirrored a few other bad experiences I’ve had with men. Rape is complicated!
You’re right, the sexes are not equal. We are significantly biologically and psychologically different. This doesn’t mean they’re not equally valuable though. I don’t know for sure about why rape is punished more severely than other violent assaults, but I think Judaeo-Christian ethics and laws have something to do with it. I don’t want to expound upon it and build castles made of sand, but that would be my guess.
All cultures have have recognized rape as a particularly heinous crime (though not necessarily all groups of women were protected from it). We might debate how much they cared about women’s feelings as opposed to other things, but the traumatizing nature of rape is attested in literature and mythology as well, while female sexual coercion never got the same treatment anywhere until 20th-century feminists decided that the sexes are equal. And even now, stories of female sexual coercion are nearly always like Justin’s — not very traumatizing.
Therefore, I have a huge problem with gender neutral rape law. It is not fair to punish women equally for a crime which is decidedly unequal. Something too trivial for the law to bother with suddenly became one of the most serious crimes thanks to feminism, and that is insane.
Berge. Hogwash. You claim that woman raped suffers worse than violation of her bodily integrity and agenncy, but you do not say why or how. As for the rape-avoidance adaptations, they do not mean that women-rape is (or isn’t) uniquely traumatizing, only that women rap-avoidance is part of their reproductive strategy as females, NOT as individuals. As for “just another free reproductive opportunity”, that may apply to males but not to human men. And if it did, there’s not reason it wouldn’t apply to women, which is patently absurd.
The kind of adaptations I am talking about can exist if psychological sex differences exist. If you want to deny those and claim we are blank slates, then fine, but the evidence is not on your side. If men and women have different sexual mentalities — for which the evidence is overwhelming — then they can also have different sexual mentalities with regard to sexual coercion by the opposite sex.
And no, rape is not just another free reproductive opportunity for women, because a woman doesn’t need any help to get sex and she has to bear the cost of pregnancy that men “raped” by females don’t need to. There is nothing symmetrical about those situations, and no reason to believe the sexes should feel the same way about them. Women stand to lose paternal investment when they are raped, so it is hugely damaging, while men risk a few minutes of inconvenience.
Probably the biggest negative effects of rape are psychological. A fetus conceived by rape can be aborted, although with great cost and side effects. You cannot get rid of the psychological effects with a medical procedure. Trust me, it’s not a few minutes of inconvenience. I had a couple days where I was nearly incapacitated and could practically only write drafts of this essay and eat. I still have panic attacks. Maybe I’m weak, I don’t know. From what I’ve been through and what I’ve heard I don’t think so.
I believe that rape is probably about equally traumatic for both sexes on the whole. I think that legal distinction might be more just but I’m not sure if any practical effect would ought-weigh any perception of inequity.
Do not put words in my mouth, if you please. I do not deny that psychological sex differences exist. What I do deny is that they somehow make coerced sex not rape. How you feel about such a thing happening to you -which is all the psychological adaptations are – is not relevant to the nature of the act itself. If it was, then a woman penetrated during her sleep and who remains unaware of it hasn’t been raped. Again, that’s absurd.
And women don’t stand to lose paternal investment when they are raped : they never had it in the first place. Rape is as much a free reproductive for women as it is for men; that it might result in an onerous pregnancy doesn’t change it, since a willing intercourse can have the same result. And again, that’s not pertinent : rape is not punished by law because they result in unwanted pregnancies, they are punished by law because they are violations of a person’s agency and bodily integrity. (Though the laws themselves, like all works of men, can certainly be rationalizations of natural inclinations.)
Quentin, you subscribe to the feminist view that rape is a crime of violence rather than sex. This view fails to acknowledge the special damage done because of the sexual aspect, and if it were accurate, we wouldn’t need a special category for rape because then all violent assaults would be the same, only distinguished by the level of violence. Pretending rape is just another violent crime does a disservice to real rape victims and denies biology.
The special trauma of rape is something only a man can create. Evidence to the contrary is virtually nonexistent. Female sexual coercion is not terribly uncommon, but being very traumatized by it is so uncommon that I know of no credible examples.
We don’t (or shouldn’t) make serious crimes for no good reason. You are operating on the simplistic argument that “coerced sex is rape” without stopping to consider what it means and whether it is reasonable. Female perpetrators were excluded for good reason all the way up to the late 20th century and it is also true that not all coerced sex is rape. Rape reasonably and traditionally defined means the coercion needs to be at the level of serious violence, meaning the woman needs to put up reasonable resistance, not just token resistance. This requirement in itself makes it almost impossible for women to rape men since men are stronger than women, but the difference runs much deeper than that. Even if truly violent female sexual coercion happens, it is what the law should consider de minimis and not bother with, because no reasonable man is traumatized by the sexual aspect like real rape victims are.
You say it is absurd that a woman penetrated during her sleep and who remains unaware of it hasn’t been raped, but that was actually the legal reality in Norway until the year 2000, before which sex with unconscious women was a lesser crime of sexual exploitation, not rape. I disagree with this reform and still feel sex with unconscious women belongs to a different category than rape, though admittedly it can be a close one depending on the circumstances and if the man has caused her unconscious state against her will, it was and should be considered real rape. The distinction is important, because there is a huge difference between merely taking advantage of a woman’s unconsciousness and forcibly putting her in that situation for the purposes of obtaining sex from her. Only the latter is rape in my opinion, and the law was actually that reasonable in my jurisdiction as recently as 16 years ago when feminists corrupted it.
You are so indoctrinated by feminist ideology that you think it represents timeless truths, but in reality it is just a historical aberration.
Mr. Berge,
As a pretty indoctrinated “neo”-feminist I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I agree with your analysis completely.
That is all, thanks.
Eivind, I have a name, it’s Justin. I never said I considered it rape because of feminist theory. I never said being raped by a female wasn’t traumatic, just that it was less traumatic; it wasn’t as as traumatic because of a host of other reasons that clearly are not worth bringing up to you. You can keep on tearing down strawmen if it makes you feel better, but you’ll learn more if you actually face down your opponent instead of your conception of what he is.
If anyone has any questions or comments they are uncomfortable asking, you can reach me by twitter or email. My twitter is hotlinked in the article’s introduction and my e-mail address is easily found through a google search. Thanks for the lively discussion!
Wow Justin, this is extremely well articulated. Thank you so much for having the courage to share your story!
Thank you for the kind words Laura. I’m going to have to deal with it whether it’s public or not and I’ll probably be stronger for it. I can probably justify doing this on purely selfish reasons to be honest, but that wasn’t the real reason. I thought it was an important subject that I had a somewhat unique perspective on and that I should share my experiences.
Berge : What did I tell you about about not putting words into my mouth ? The very reason for that request is that it would have spared you from missing the points I made by so large a margin that you actually tried to debunk them by arguing that I am saying the opposite of what I said. I do not – repeat, do NOT – subscribe to feminist theories of any kind, among them the preposterous notion that “rape is a crime of violence, not sex”.
And you go on with your apparent favorite “If God had intended man to fly, He would have given them wings.”
Spare me. Especially since we’re trying to discuss the meaning of a word and how it applies or not to men, and what you argue is that one law, at one time, in one country was as inadequate as the very ad absurdum is used.
And that women shouldn’t be punished as men for the same crime, for some reason.
Are you going to accuse me of being partial to the feminist idea that the sexes are equal ? Don’t bother. What I SAY – of my own volition, thank you very much – is that individuals are equal before the Law, and should be treated accordingly.
You say I’m indoctrinated by feminism, but it is you who argue for women’s legal unaccountability, the very center of feminists petulant demands to have all of men’s traditional forms of power, but none of their obligations.
Addendum: Hell, you falsely accuse me of subscribing to the “violence, not sex” feminist nonsense, and then you argue that rape is defined by a sufficient level … of violence. Get a grip.
Quentin, you are a hopeless case of feminist indoctrination. The violence in rape is a necessary part of the definition (as it should be defined, not the date rape nonsense), but isn’t because rape is such a violent crime that it is so heinous. Rapists actually tend to do the minimal physical damage needed to get sex; the violence in rape is merely instrumental, and it is the sex that is traumatizing, for reasons that don’t apply to female sexual coercion.
You are confusing equality before the law with unequal acts that only seem equal because feminists have convinced you that there are no sex differences. Except the act isn’t even physically equal, so it takes an astonishing amount of brainwashing to believe a woman having sex and a man having sex are doing the same thing. I agree that women and men should be equal before the law, but only when they are doing the same things, and penetrating and making someone penetrate you are not the same things! Neither physically nor psychologically or biologically or culturally.
Nothing can be more politically correct than the idea that women can rape men, so it takes a certain amount of courage to stand up against it, which you are sadly lacking. Everyone parrots this nonsense, but men don’t actually accuse rape when they are sexually coerced by women, because they only feel trivially offended. I am one of the few who dare to admit this glaring reality.
I bow to your knowledge of how my mind works. I see now that your discourse only appears riddled with inconsistencies, sometimes within one sentence because my thoughts are flawed by the mystical powers of the feminist sisterhood. It’s almost like you can read my mind. Wait you can, can you ? Who am I kidding ? I see now that I should consult you every day, for fear that the feminist virus might take over my thought process. For example, I have the nagging suspicion that I have encountered people who thoughts they could read minds (but you’re not like them, you’re the real thing), and used those kinds of unfalsifiable premises to justify literally anything. If only I could remember the name of the ideology they most often supported… Wait. I think it started with fem.
The problem in general is that, of course, rape is about reproduction and hence about sex. Just look at rape in the animal-kingdom, including nice things like dolphins gang-raping young females for days and the like. It really is obvious why sex is one of the strongest known motivators, because otherwise a high reproduction-effort species like Homo Sapiens would have died out long ago. Male-on-male rape happens because while the sex-drive of the perpetrator is somewhat misdirected (there are apparently good evolutionary explanations for that), its intensity is not changed.
Now, human beings are not animals today. But the whole inability to discuss and educate people about sex, sex drive and its purpose (exemplified nicely by the obvious nonsense of rape being about power, or the non-discussion of male-on-male rape) makes the problem much, much worse and is a serious failure of civilization. It prevents people with dangerous levels of sex drive from getting help or even realizing they have a problem. The results of that are rather predictable and tragic.