At menopause, my wife’s libido went to zero, but she won’t take hormone replacement therapy due to fear of cancer. She has refused sex for well over 3 years, and though she says she understands the stress I experience when denied sex, she doesn’t want it so I can’t have it. And though she’s ultra-responsible in other aspects of her life, this is an exception. We’ve been seeing a marriage counselor for years, and just 2 months ago she told me, “You know, it is never going to get better.” I believe my wife when she says she loves me, but it’s a strangely limited love; we can cuddle but not caress. When I hold her, I have the sensation of being high on a mountaintop, breathing the rarefied air. So, how does a responsible, caring, active, intelligent woman reconcile her decision to terminate all sexual activity with a man she still professes to love? How can someone who is so expert at understanding the consequences of her actions on others ignore something that she knows is incredibly important to me?
The problem is manifold but it has three main components. First, modern Western women are taught a somewhat-milder version of Robin Morgan’s definition of rape: “I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” Now, most women don’t go nearly as far as Morgan, and in fact a large fraction don’t like initiating at all. However, they do believe the part which says that the only valid reason for a woman to have sex is “her own genuine affection and desire”; they might not go so far as to call other sex “rape”, but they do believe there’s something wrong with it, that it’s somehow deficient, defective, disgusting or at least déclassé. This is part of neo-Victorianism; Victorian women were taught that good women only had sex to please their husbands and have babies, while women now are taught that good women only have sex to please themselves or have babies. In both cases, a large spectrum of female sexual behavior is branded as “wrong”, and modern women have just as much difficulty rejecting that repressive dogma as their great-grandmothers did.
Next, American Protestant Christianity has long taught that sexual needs are actually not needs at all, but only desires; by and large, Americans dependably (out loud, at least) reject the fact that sexual deprivation has deleterious physical and psychological effects, despite the fact that most people have either experienced them or observed them firsthand. This has been enshrined as a tenet of faith by neofeminists; they not only insist that men don’t need sex, but teach that anyone who acknowledges the facts is a “rape apologist” who believes that any given individual man is somehow entitled to free sex from any given individual woman. Because of American anti-sex culture nobody has the gonads to stand up to them and pronounce their beliefs utterly bat-shit crazy, and so even though most American women aren’t neofeminists the idea that sex is more akin to watching TV than to eating is a popular one.
Lastly, you must remember that the catechism of androgyny is extremely widespread; many people truly believe that all differences between men and women are the result of “socialization”. They ignore primate studies, deny differences in brain architecture, and pretend sex hormones have no effect on behavior despite the fact that it’s incontrovertible that they do. And once a person buys into this myth, it’s easy to deny (as many do) that men typically need more sex than women and suffer worse effects from sexual deprivation. Though “social construction” dogmatists pretend belief in neutral norms, the fact of the matter is that they overwhelmingly believe that female norms are standard, and that typical male behavior is a pathological deviation from those norms.
What this boils down to is that your wife doesn’t know how important sex is to you, or else she unconsciously denies it. Her behavior tells me she subscribes to all three of these beliefs to one degree or another: You don’t really need sex no matter how much you say otherwise; she doesn’t need it, therefore you don’t either since men and women are the same…and if you really loved her you wouldn’t push, because duty sex is perverted. You’re right when you say she didn’t choose to be this way; she was taught it just as we’re all taught bigoted attitudes and propaganda useful to maintaining the status quo. I’m sure she really does love you, but she honestly believes giving you sex is as unnecessary and undesirable as acquiescing to your suggestions she learn to water-ski despite being afraid of the water. She has told you point-blank that she will not provide you with any more sex; it would therefore be best for all involved if you make your own discreet arrangements and leave off trying to get it from her, since the effort merely creates conflict and produces no positive results.
(Have a question of your own? Please consult this page to see if I’ve answered it in a previous column, and if not just click here to ask me via email.)
I don’t think she loves him. They’ve been going through marriage counseling for years and it’s normally always the wife that hauls the husband in on that – so she has some kind of issue with him.
That – or she has a body-image issue and feels she’s too old and ugly to do the sex thing anymore.
Exact same thing happened with my wife – and because she actually DID have cancer once she and her Doc ruled HRT out. However, my wife never actually refused to have sex with me. What it was … was every time I initiated it I could see the fear in her eyes because she knew she knew she wouldn’t respond sexually the way she always had. This put her in the position of either faking it all the time – or just laying there. I told her I’d give her some space … you know, people get older, sex changes eventually and we just needed to figure out what the next stage would be like after having sex for three plus times a week since we were married. So I started making “discreet” arrangements with call girls to take care of myself.
After about two years – her problems reversed themselves and her libido came back. She told me her libido is now a “6” where, when she was 25 it would have been a “10” – I’ll take that though – because when she was 25 she was one horny and receptive minx. Whatever, we’re back to three plus times a week and the shit is fire hot … better than any hooker I’ve hired even though some of them might be debatabley better looking and more skilled – there is nothing like being with a woman who’s grooving on you because she’s into you – and not just for the cash.
I will tell you that I had been completely faithful for over 20 years to my wife … the time I’ve spent with call girls helped me though. There’s a price to having sex with one woman for more than 20 years – and that price is, you kind of forget how to have sex with other women. They’re shaped differently, they feel differently – it feels alien when you initially start doing it. However, I got used to it and these girls even taught me new tricks … which I have used with my wife with exciting results. So our sex is a lot better now.
My sexual relationship with my wife might be a bit different from many – because she’s very submissive and I am very alpha dominant. I never asked her if she wanted to have sex – I’ve always simply just “took her” – fuck the neofeminists, that is the way my wife likes it. I know she’s not in the mood when I start – but I know she’ll get that way soon enough soon enough. It’s cave-man, and very primal. We like it though. 😀
Maggie, you say there is evidence that sex hormones have an effect on behavior, which is true but not exactly the issue.
There is evidence that testosterone increases competitiveness, but where is the evidence that sex hormones increase libido or sexual desire? Although testosterone is “believed” to increase libido, I don’t know of any evidence for that belief.
Please refer me to such evidence. The question is important, because that belief supports the myth that sexual desire “begins” at puberty, supposedly due to the surge in sex hormones.
You’re asking that question about women right? Because there’s evidence aplenty that hormones affect male libido.
There’s a big difference between the observation that testosterone increases sexual desire and the fallacious notion that it causes sexual desire. I discussed T-level research in “Between the Ears“, where I wrote:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0707302
The question I have about that study is, from my admittedly limited knowledge of the female endocrine system – I still think I’ve seen statements that “aromatization” occurs in females as it does in males.
In males, an excess of testosterone results in the aromatase enzyme going into overdrive to convert test to estrogen. This is why some body builders have boobs after using aromatizing compounds like testosterone.
So did it happen in the study to with these women? In other words – you administer test – but it converts via aromatization to estrogen … which would explain the cases of breast cancer. Testosterone doesn’t explain those.
I don’t think test is the whole picture – it certainly isn’t in males. Too much estrogen in men – and we feel like shit and can’t get it up. Too little estrogen in men – and we feel like shit and can’t get it up. So clearly there’s a spectrum of hormones responsible for sexual response – and it probably goes beyond test and estrogen alone.
Thanks for the link. I’ll study the article and references. Note that it was funded by Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals.
This is gonna end in divorce.
Any woman that has those attitudes is not gonna understand him discreetly meeting his needs on the side.
So he needs to fire up the lawyers now.
If only he could expect a fair outcome from divorce courts.
True. There is little to no chance of that.
So she won’t screw him the right way, but she can and will screw him the wrong way.
WELP. Even more happy that I’m single.
One of the signs of rape attitudes is said to be a man feeling entitled to sex. It is, I believe, intentional double speak. Of course, I’m not entitled to demand sex from my wife, girlfriend, courtesan, etc. at any time on my own terms. But neither society nor the government has the right to require that I live my life celibate because they don’t sanction relationships that are available to me.
That “rape attitude” thing is a good example of a lie with a kernel of truth. While it’s absolutely true that a man isn’t entitled to sex with any given woman, he is most certainly entitled to it with any woman who freely agrees to have it with him, no matter what her reason.
One quick comment on Robin Morgan. I’m a shy man. I would love it if women took over the responsibility for initiating relationships and sex. Some women will, most won’t. That is never going to change.
I would love that too. What’s most fucked up is that some women are ready to flame men who try to approach them when they’re not in the mood as well as flame men who don’t approach them when they would like it, but aren’t ready to give clear signals about which is the case. We just can’t guess that, you know…
Not really that bad, until those women demand social and legal consequences for not suiting their whims
One of the stupider things in our culture is the belief that marriage is about anything other than sex. If you live with someone and you aren’t having sex with her, she’s your roommate, not your wife. (I used to have a female roommate who I loved, bickered with and took care of. I was fond of her husband too. They made me their child’s godfather. However, much as some outside observers might think so, she was never my wife.)
Now, of course, the law may still crush you like an insect for having the temerity to recognize this fact, but the law is an ass in this case. Your “wife” may think she has the right to deny you sex with her and also with every other woman on the face of the planet, but she gives up that right when she refuses to have sex with you.
My suggestion is a clean break, because a wife who won’t have sex with you to keep you probably doesn’t even love you. Talk to a divorce lawyer and figure out your options. Now, if you don’t want to do that, you can certainly cheat. Morally I don’t really think you are doing anything wrong, but legally that can lead to a messy divorce. Or, if you choose the life of a celibate monk, I suggest you take up Buddhism and learn that the beginning of suffering is desire. Because the one thing you can’t do is change the heart of a woman like this, who feels entitled to call herself “wife” while degrading her “husband” every day of the “marriage.”
Oh, and incidentally, the above goes for women too. If your man decides suddenly that he won’t because sex is wicked, you have rights too. (Women just often don’t seem to care as much as men.)
I disagree entirely- Marriage (of the legal variety) is not about sex, marriage is about inheritance and children, and to an annoying degree social acceptance. It is making the statement “consider us a unit in the law.”
That is, of course, flawed, fundamentally, because two people are not the same as one person.
Sex is sex, and has nothing to do with marriage (beyond the making babies thing) However, a healthy relationship between exclusive lovers requires sex. If you don’t want sex (or even the same amount of sex, within reason, as your partner), don’t expect to be in an exclusive relationship.
Marraige ain’t just about sex, or I’d have been married rather more times!
However, I think one of the key parts of a marriage is that it runs to both parties’ satisfaction, and that includes sexually. I think the lack of acknowledgment of one party’s sexual needs is a rather fundamental lack of satisfaction.
Sexual incompatibility like this REQUIRES permission for the unsatisfied partner(s) to fulfil their needs with others, with appropriate safety and (given society’s fucked-up attitudes) discretion.
Otherwise, it’s as abusive as denying your partner food. I can be not in the mood to cook or to eat, but I can’t then tell my partner she can’t order takeout or go to the store.
I’m really not sure what marriage is about if not about sex. Sure, you can mention children, and I suppose with modern technology you can have children without having sex, but it isn’t the usual way.
Anyway, let’s not get too hung up on the word “marriage” here. What we are really talking about is lovers, whatever their legal status. Lovers can make a deal, “if you are having sex with me, you aren’t having sex with anyone else,” and abide by that deal. However, a person who says “You are not having sex with me or anyone else,” is not your lover but your warden.
I have nothing but respect for some celibate people. I’ve seen religious people who were cheerful, diligent and a benefit to their community while maintaining strict celibacy. But that’s internal discipline requiring a lot of strength, and very different than having some jailer imposing a life sentence on you.
It’s the difference between fasting and being starved. One is a form of self-discipline that can be done for religious or other reasons, the other a form of sadistic cruelty. Look, mighty empires have crumbled and storied careers have collapsed because people have given in to sexual desires. I really think it’s a bit much to expect some sad and unsatisfying relationship to survive some kind of forced celibacy.
I totally agree. He should simply make a clean break and divorce this woman. She wants him to fulfill his part of the marriage bargain but not keep hers. This relationship is over.
I’m just gonna throw out there that I’m not convinced men “need sex the way they need food”. If you do not eat food, you die. If you do not get sex, you do not die, thus, you need food more. Further, the “need” for sex can also be described thoroughly as an addiction, just like the “need” for coffee in the morning can be classified as an addiction. It.
That being said, 1) I do not think addiction is necessarily bad- especially if the thing you are addicted to is not harmful, or, is actually helpful Addiction is a natural biological response to your body deciding it needs more of something, and whether that something is good or bad, the reaction is very close to being the same. I also think that claiming that a desire, such as a desire for coffee or chocolate or sugar, is somehow less important because you need it for mental health rather than physical is asinine.
I think attempting to argue that men need sex so badly that they cannot live without it is a mistake. The argument really should be is your distaste for sex more destructive to your well being than the lack of sex is destructive to your husband’s (or whoever). Moreover, if it is, you should allow you husband (or whoever) to seek what they need elsewhere.
For me though, the sinker is that she said to you “it isn’t going to get any better”. Well, duh, now that you’ve decided it wont, it definitely wont! She has professed to you that she is giving up. Its tragic, and terrible, and you might want to make sure she really meant it, because if she did, that’s it. Love is not possible for her, whether she wants it to be or not.
Best of luck.
Also, any person that has no regard for the covenant; the deal; the agreement…under almost any other circumstance we sue, and get out of the contract, but for some reason, we think it’s different when it comes to marriage.
“I want all the benefits of being your wife, but under no circumstances are we having sex.”
….Why are you not gone yet?
Maggie, may I presume to add to your insightful response to this gentleman?
Dear Sir;
Your wife has broken her vows of marriage. Failing to provide this basic human need is failing to “love, honor & cherish”.
I wonder about her response when it is presented in this manner.
I wonder what she would say when presented
I think that the deleterious effects of women not getting enough sex (especially good sex) gets expressed in extreme prudishness, misandry, general hatred of sex itself, hatred of sexual women, etc. We all know what happens when women with these sorts of attitude gain political and social power.
Speaking from a brief personal experience: my first sex partner/boyfriend-y person was crap in bed. Though I’m not a size queen, he has a small penis but the problem was that he approached sex as though he was wielding a much larger cock. It completely turned me off sex, men, and garnered a disgust of sexual people….until I had good sex with another friend of mine. And then it was like, the heavens opened up and angels started singing.
That’s very interesting. Sex can be this incredibly strong bonding experience, and you described it in religious terminology which is my experience as well.
Men can also be horrible prudes and hypocrites, but since us men have perfect “mood rings” (ahem) that make it incredibly obvious to us what we find sexy and arousing, I think that prudish men tend to blame sexy women for their own lust to an extent. That can lead to horrible behavior too (see poor Esmerelda in Victor Hugo’s The Hunchback of Notre-Dame).
I’m glad things got better for you anyway. My first sexual experiences were pretty fantastic, even though my teachers in school tried to convince us that sex is not that great and that us teenagers were building it up too much in our minds. (They were flat wrong about a lot of other stuff too, but that was so colossally wrong that it always stuck with me.)
LOL … I may be totally wrong about this but I’ve always believed that women really don’t know when they need to have sex. I wish I had a dollar for every time a girl told me … “(pant, pant) FUCK I NEEDED THAT!”
If my wife gets stressed about work – I take her in the bedroom and work her! It changes the whole nature of her day from negative to positive and I love watching her flit around the rest of the day all happy – knowing I did that with my “nasty skills”. 😀
Women are superior to men in a lot of ways – but there’s still a trick or two we can teach you gals. 😉
For instance, someone stated above that some women don’t like to be approached unless they want to be approached. Well, I believe almost every woman WANTS to be approached. Mind you, she likes to have the option of saying “no” and may even joke about you to her girlfriends after she shoots you down in flames – but, truth be told – she got off on the fact that a man noticed her. One of the things no girl wants to be is that girl in the room that no one notices.
And that’s essentially the jist of my advice to young guys when they complain about girls. Approach them! And fearlessly so! If you get shot down, take it like a man and don’t be discouraged. Feel good in the fact that – even if you weren’t successful you did something positive for the girl and she’s not going to forget you.
And then there are times when you will get very lucky too!
It’s like the lottery – you can’t win if you don’t play!
I wouldn’t see it as the woman not knowing that she needed sex. It’s more like when you’re not quite thirsty enough to get a drink and after someone gives you one you say, “Thanks I needed that”. No one would say you don’t know when you’re thirsty.
At any rate, I have NEVER been with a woman who didn’t know when she needed to have sex. Going back to High School, every girl I ever dated was the first to initiate action. First time I touched a breast – the girl put my hand there.
If it were like the lottery, it wouldn’t be worth it. Fortunately, the odds are MUCH better.
I think what sucks the most about this is that if the husband is being honest (and we have no reason to believe otherwise) then he wants to have sex for intimacy reasons. I know with my wife that as often as not, we feel closer afterwards. So it’s not like he can just either go to a prostitute or start something on the side to orgasm. I think she’s being stubborn and wrong and the marriage will fail because of it.
In context of this story, I thought of this passage from Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D. H. Lawrence. It’s the story of a young woman who’s husband comes back from the Great War with horrible injuries, that mean he will never make love to to his wife again. Note Lady Chatterly’s father’s odd compassion for his daughter in this situation:
It was in her second winter at Wragby her father said to her: ‘I hope,
Connie, you won’t let circumstances force you into being a
demi-vierge.’
‘A demi-vierge!’ replied Connie vaguely. ‘Why? Why not?’
‘Unless you like it, of course!’ said her father hastily. To Clifford
he said the same, when the two men were alone: ‘I’m afraid it doesn’t
quite suit Connie to be a demi-vierge.’
‘A half-virgin!’ replied Clifford, translating the phrase to be sure of it.
He thought for a moment, then flushed very red. He was angry and
offended.
‘In what way doesn’t it suit her?’ he asked stiffly.
‘She’s getting thin…angular. It’s not her style. She’s not the
pilchard sort of little slip of a girl, she’s a bonny Scotch trout.’
Of course, it was stuff like this that led to this book being considered obscene all over the Anglo-Saxon world.
It’s for reasons like this that I am unlikely to ever marry. I don’t think it makes much sense to give one woman a monopoly over your sexuality, if you will risk divorce by going to another woman when your wife might no longer want sex in the future.
Not that I have anything against monogamy. I’m one loyal client to my escort, hehe. Oh, and I’m never going to have sex with an amateur, ever.
Americans dependably (out loud, at least) reject the fact that sexual deprivation has deleterious physical and psychological effects, despite the fact that most people have either experienced them or observed them firsthand. (which linked to this)Out of Control : As I’ve pointed out before, male sexuality tends to get out of control when untended.
It deeply disturbs me when generalizations are made, not all men are controlled or effected by their libido. To claim men all men become rape capable if they don’t have hourly,weekly or monthly sex is like saying all hooker have std’s, this nonsense leads to laws where since they won’t make one requiring sex, they might create one like a predator list where single sexually inactive men must register because you are a danger to the community. This deeply Irks me.
Please point to the passage where I say that “all men become rape-capable if they don’t have hourly sex”. Wild exaggeration does not prove any point when dealing with reasonable people.
Hourly is a wild exaggeration, but so is the notion that men’s ” sexuality tends to get out of control when untended” I’m sorry but this dog may wag it’s tail but the tail don’t wag this dog.
You are A man, not “men”. How many sexual relationships with other men have you had, that you were able to observe frustration behavior up close and personal?
As for the grammar it’s irrelevant, the point is not all men are the same. Too many buy into the infantile belief that their state of being a man is tied into sex, and that if a certain appendage isn’t being frequently used they need to be emotional in some fashion, which is nonsense.
I’ll agree with you that men aren’t entirely controlled by our libido. But if you think it has no relevance and that prolonged deprivation has no effect, you’re marching up you own ass. I’m willing to bet only a very few men really don’t need sex (while most hookers avoid std’s as carefully as they avoid cops – it would be like a mechanic letting his tools get rusty, see other columns about the dirty whore myth).
Men not getting sex may express itself in different negative ways. Many men become depressed or sad. Many men become angry or have some other emotion. Extreme examples of men not getting sex can lead to suicide and the murder of others. George Sodini and U.S. Army Major Nidal Hassan are extreme iconic examples. Yes, they almost certainly had other problems besides not getting sex and maybe these are the reasons they did not get sex. However, do you think that these heterosexual men named Major Nidal Hassan and George Sodini would have been less likely to murder other people and George Sodini would have been less likely to have commited suicide if both of them had sex with women? Do you think prostitutes would have seriously reduced the risk of these men doing these things if Hassan and Sodini had sex with them? Do you think that without prostitution prohibition, both men might have been more likely to visit prostitutes? Do you think that without the social acceptance of shaming men who visit prostitutes that these men would have been more likely to visit prostitutes? I do on all these questions. What do you think?
Suggesting that he divorce his wife is presumptuous. Maggie addressed a vital point that is clearly causing him pain. The full tapestry of his life was not revealed. His words suggest he still loves her. Sex is a vital component of marriage, but a long-lasting marriage is about much more than sex.
It is an economic relationship, and the sad truth is that a divorce will deprive him of well over half of his life’s earnings. It’s quite possible that alimony or other imposed obligations will decimate his take-home pay for years. The stresses of divorce are manifold and can be quite lethal; they are not to be taken lightly.
Marriage is also a social relationship. They may have children. There are certainly friends and family. Many of those relationships will be adversely affected by a divorce.
I thought about the end of sex before marrying 20 years ago. It seems to me that if we are together long enough there will come a day when sex is no longer possible. Ideally we’ll be horny old folks, but cancer, arthritis, accidents, surgeries, menopause/andropause, illness, and other changes rarely limit themselves to what we would freely choose.
Ideally the day of “no longer possible” is only shortly before one of us dies. So do we divorce if I get prostate cancer and the surgery leaves me impotent and incontinent? Do I leave her if breast cancer disfigures her to the point where she no longer feels like a sexual woman? Do the answers to these sorts of questions change if we are in our 90s instead of our 40s?
I hope that if I am the one who stops sex I will have the courage to give my blessing to my wife to find it elsewhere, and to really want that for her. Hopefully she will feel and act the same if the situation is reversed. But even if it does not work that way, divorce may not be the best option for either of us. That decision requires a lot more than one column of good advice, however thoughtful.
“She has refused sex for well over 3 years, and though she says she understands the stress I experience when denied sex, she doesn’t want it so I can’t have it.”
This is not about him being compassionate. This is about him making his own choice. She’s not being compassionate here, so I think he should be selfish. Selfish could mean taking up reading or building model ships to fill the void. Or it could mean divorce. Or it could mean cheating. I won’t respect him if he cowardly chooses “yes, dear” because he’s letting his cruel wife boss him around. “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice,” as the old song goes.
He’s miserable, and he’s probably making her miserable, unless she’s “getting off” on her power to ruin his life. He should talk to a divorce lawyer so he’s ready if she decides to leave, or if he decides to leave himself. Yes, it could cost him, but she’s already shown she’s capable of making unilateral, arbitrary decisions. He’d better be ready.
I hope they can make things work. It’s obvious he still loves her, and he’s sure that she still loves him. I won’t be presumptive enough to say “oh no she doesn’t” because how can any of us know, from what little we were given, that she doesn’t? She is not, however, meeting at least one very important need.
She’s also made it clear that he isn’t going to be getting any sex from her, so his choices are binary: get it somewhere else or do without. This is the same whether he stays with her or not.
Perhaps, with the tension of the sex thing relieved, they can work on other problems. If they work out other problems, the sex may even come back. But as of now, his choice is binary: he gets it somewhere else or he does without.
I don’t think I’d put up with this for as long as this gentleman seems to have done. This woman would have got the Order of the Boot from me, lang syne, unless she had a superlatively good excuse.
Well, I am almost in the same situation as this man. Just wrote to Maggie because my wife has “almost” no desire for sex and we have it less than 12 times per year. She believes I need to “chill out” and deal with it, but I believe this is incredibly selfish from her part. I have tried to enamor her in different ways but all I seem to get is for her to grow more confident of her power over me when I do this.
I am going to stick around because I have a daughter that is still in elementary school that I want to raise and be a father to. But I am actively looking to make arrangements to meet my needs elsewhere. This sucks, I really want to love her but I can spend myself loving her with sacrifice of many things, but she will not change this about her.
I want to love my wife but she does not want to love me…