Aww man… you missed the best bit!

OK I admit it, that was a long-ass post. There’s just so much to say about this subject(s) I genuinely find it very difficult to express it in less (my failing, I’m sure).

I do believe freeing your mind from the government paradigm (the religion of statism) is literally to go to school all over again, only in reverse….. except that looking at the way the world is heading right now we simply don’t have 12+ years to figure this stuff out.

Still, “onwards and upwards” as they say

“…You used an awful lot of words to say, in effect, “those who are rich and well-connected tend to get away with more than the rest of us could…”

That wasn’t really my point.

I was really talking about the tendency for people (including yourself, no offence) to bounce wildly between two ‘hysterical’ / ‘anti hysterical’ viewpoints. This is illustrated (again) in your last comment where you play these two extreme world views off against each other…..

1. All is lost, it’s all controlled, we are all helpless leaves at the mercy of the wind, there is no hope…etc
2. Things aren’t so bad. I haven’t been dragged off to a work camp just yet and there’s still food in the shops and entertainment on TV. I’ll just go with the flow and wait patiently and passively for world events to simply enfold around me.

The way I see it, both of these attitudes are equally extreme and fanatical. And each viewpoint tends to be justified by ridiculing the other for being extreme and fanatical. This is how we are programmed to remain ‘ridiculous and easy-to-control livestock full of nonsensical ideas’.

Baaaa! Baaaa!

“….What you are saying here is that the elites control everything….”

Only if you define ‘everything’ as being those things in society which the elite control.

If you look exclusively to politics, media, laws, government, the (monopolised) economy for the solutions and for social change then they have indeed already won, for they already control all of these things – maybe not 100%, but a hell of a lot more than we do.

The mistake is to believe these agencies are the only ways society can be organised…. or believing that society can’t in fact organise itself. You see, the elites really don’t care if you love government or hate government. They don’t care if you vote and cheer or riot and protest.

All they really care about is that you believe government is real.

In reality there is no government, there are only PEOPLE. And ‘society’ is just a bunch of people interacting and transacting with each other, based on their *beliefs* – their world view. If we all suddenly believed Maggie was a queen she would immediately become a queen! LOL!

It would be *our belief* that she deserved to be treated as a royal and be given a palace, gifts, a throne, the right to rule over us etc that would make her a queen. In fact ONLY THROUGH OUR BELIEFS and subsequent behaviour can Maggie become a queen. She could never prove to us she was queen because ‘queen’ cannot be defined except through consensus belief of the people. She can *prove* she is a woman, or that she is grade 5 on the piano, or that she is a good cook (assuming she is of course) ….but she can never prove she is queen because that is totally arbitrary. Only *we* can make her queen through our consensus belief that she is indeed our queen.

Government is just the same – it only exists through consensus belief that it is real and through our resultant behaviour where we all act as though government and its laws are real. Government is essentially just another religion. It is mainly through government propaganda in government schools during our childhood that we are taught to pray to (vote for) a bunch of men in a big building to control our lives on the basis that they somehow know better than we do how we should live and how we should manage our wealth (hint: give half of it to them to spend).

In reality the government is no more (and no less) than a group of people in a big fancy building pretending to represent a mythical agency called ‘government’, just as priests are a group of people in a big fancy building pretending to represent a mythical being called ‘God’.

These men pretending to represent this agency called ‘government’ use our consensus belief in ‘government’ to grant themselves the monopolistic legal right to initiate force (or even violence and murder) against the public to achieve their objectives. If we didn’t believe they were ‘government’ we would all naturally call them criminals, thieves, murderers, mafia etc for stealing half our earnings and using the money to murder children in the middle east.

“……I’m going to repeat the sentence that set you off, but this time I’m going to boldface one word:
“At the same time, if there is credible evidence that it’s more than that, then of course the rich and well-connected should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us.”……”

It didn’t ‘set me off’, I just prefer to discuss the *real world* and not some mythical world which doesn’t exist where laws mean something completely different.

‘Laws’ are just the opinions currently held by this mythical agency ‘government’ which are then imposed onto the rest of society and enforced through the threat or initiation of violence (kidnapping, fines, imprisonment, tasering, shooting, beating with clubs etc).

It is ‘laws’ (such as the national security act) which have prevented credible evidence related to Bohemian Grove from ever reaching the ‘law courts’. In the UK more ‘laws’ have been used as an excuse to kidnap a man and put him in a cage for a year for trying to hand out leaflets about the Hollie Greig cover up in a public space. So you can’t say if evidence ever comes to light then laws should be applied because laws are clearly being used to prevent evidence from ever coming to light in the first place. This is like saying holy wars will always be justified until someone can prove that God does not exist.

Well God is not based on evidence to begin with is he – so it will never happen! ……and likewise, ‘laws’ have nothing to do with morality, ‘rights’, freedom or justice either. ‘Laws’ are NOT there to protect our property rights, or promote freedoms or justice. We are taught in government schools that government ‘laws’ ensure the following:

“We (the government) are here to make sure that no one steals or uses violence to get what they want, and if they ever do we will punish them by throwing them in a cage”

But in reality government laws ensure the following:

“We (the government) are here to make sure that only we are able to steal and use violence to get what we want, and if anyone else starts acting like we do we will punish them by throwing them in a cage”

Do you see the difference? ‘Laws’ simply ensure (through force/ violence) that the government maintains its monopoly on stealing from the population (taxes, government debt etc) and initiating violence against the population (‘laws’, police, wars, regulations etc).

The effect of ‘laws’ IN THE REAL WORLD is to prevent individuals or mafia organisations from competing with government in criminal activities.

‘Government’ is just an agency of violence and a criminal organisation by ALL definitions ……….. EXCEPT ‘law’. LOL

Without these ‘laws’ government is just a mafia (except a traditional mafia would be far more preferable to a government because mafias only want your money and in return they will leave you alone…… governments want to dictate how you live, they want your soul, your mind, your life, your children, your support, your loyalty…).

When you place an agency of violence at the heart of social organisation you end up with (a very sophisticated and expensive form of) tyranny. Always! The freedoms we do enjoy in society have nothing to do with government caring about us personally – it just makes us much less likely to rebel, thus much easier to control and much, much more PRODUCTIVE for the ruling elite.

Some of us fall for this system (this religion) totally and we happily wave our political flags and vote and cheer for our preferred slave masters. We have FAITH that the puppet slave masters we vote for will bring ‘change’. ‘Change you can BELIEVE IN’ = religious faith, a prayer to government. Only religions offer their services based on prayer/ faith …. everyone else uses contracts! LOL

Then there are other people who can see the corruption and the lies but still believe they can drive out the corruption in government and ‘change’ politics so that it finally serves the people, even though the system is specifically designed to shaft everyone, steal their money and rule everyone by force.

These people believe their faith in their ability to fundamentally change government for the better is somehow less naive than those other people who just have faith in government from the beginning!

You say that because I suggests the whole system is fundamentally criminal, violent and coercive, and it can NEVER be made to serve the people, that I am somehow ‘admitting defeat’. You imply that to abandon this religion called ‘government’ is to give up….. to lose faith in ‘government’ and the ‘system’ is to lose all hope for ‘change’.

I would argue the exact opposite

I would argue that to stop believing in this religion called ‘government’ is the first step to freedom and happiness and a peaceful voluntary and functional society. To lose all faith in ‘the system’ is to finally break free of the indoctrination, the mass mind control and to regain your own critical faculties. To remain in denial (paralysis) is just to prolong the suffering and make escape that bit harder and more dangerous.

No religion can continue to operate without consensus belief. Eventually as our belief in the religion of government subsides government will wither and fade away as it is revealed for what it is: just another criminal mafia / terrorist organisation ….and one with less and less support from the public.

The idea that “not paying government taxes is unlawful” will be eventually be replaced with “funding government terrorism is immoral”. And we will start to find new voluntary and peaceful ways to organise our society instead.

It all starts with getting real and losing our religion. If you think that means giving up or being demoralised then go right ahead and keep believing government and the whole damn system is real …. keep voting, or keep protesting or moaning or doing whatever you think might help the situation. Keep having faith.

I am happy to have lost my faith. It feels great. (Actually I don’t think I had much faith to begin with)

When I pay my taxes and obey silly laws I know that I am surrendering to terrorists who are using threats of violence against me which they call ‘laws’. I know they are then handing my money straight to the Rothschild banks to pay the interests on government loans taken out in my name and used to pay for (amongst other things) the slaughter of children and babies in Iraq.

I know government doesn’t exist. There are just people and their silly ideas and lots of indoctrinated police and soldiers getting paid to wave lots of guns about.

How many people losing all religious faith in government, and gaining clarity instead, do you think will it take before the whole immoral (and let’s face it, disastrous) system starts to crumble and fade away and good sense, peace and genuine prosperity prevail?

Now you spend a lot of words saying that they won’t be, but do you care to argue that they shouldn’t be?

But you know, you end up saying a bit more than that the rich and well-connected get away with more than the rest of us. What you are saying here is that the elites control everything. The don’t just get away with more, they are entirely above the law. They own the law. They control the government. They control the police. They control the military. They control industry. They control the media: news, entertainment, all of it. They control public opinion.

Which means that they’ve already won. We have lost. There is no hope, nothing to be done, no way to break the absolute stranglehold of the elite who already control everything.
No way to create big public exposes, because the news is in on it.
No way to have them arrested, because the cops are all in on it.
No way to try them, because the courts are in on it.
No way to regulate them, because the regulatory agencies are in on it.
No way to even create something as romantic as a popular uprising, because THEY control public opinion.
Nothing we can do at all, except to divide our time between feeling very special because we know what others do not, and occasionally wondering why THEY don’t squash us like the insignificant bugs we are.

This is the logical conclusion of your argument, not mine. I think that things are plenty bad, and they may well get worse before they get better. But I don’t believe that they are THAT bad. If I truly believed all of this, I sure wouldn’t be on line letting THEM know that I’ve ever even heard of Bohemian Grove, the Council on Foreign Relations, or any hotel that rhymes with “Milder Merg.” I would at the very least be trying to lie very low, hoping that THEY don’t notice me, and I might even consider fleeing the US or killing myself (since my life is in no way my own anyway).

I know, but you were referring to the ‘ruling elites’ and the kinds of clubs, think tanks, secret societies, fraternities and other groups they belong to. To be fair, it didn’t have anything to do with anything because you were deliberately being vague and facetious.

“… if there is credible evidence that it’s more than that, then of course the rich and well-connected should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. ….”

I see. Remind me again, what is a ‘law’ and who makes them and enforces them? Because as far as I can tell, a ‘law’ is merely the opinion of the ‘government’ which is imposed on society and enforced also by ‘government’ using their court system, police, army etc …… except that often these ‘laws’ are not enforced at all. It really depends on whether the government decides it wants to enforce them or not.

I wonder what would happen if a bunch of people totally NOT connected to the ruling establishment held mock child sacrifice rituals on some ordinary dude’s private estate every year. I mean, let’s imagine there were rumours flying about concerning sex slaves, murder and a whole bunch of other illegal and immoral behaviour at these events. Then imagine a woman compiles literally an entire book’s worth of documented evidence and allegations against these people and accuses them of kidnapping her and forcing her to participate in their violent, abusive and murderous festival of debauchery. She submits this book as evidence to the police and accuses these people of some extremely sick crimes.

You might expect the media to be all over it, causing huge public interest and the demand for an investigation. You might expect the police to carry out a full investigation and the accusations to be put through a court of law.

But as we know, in the case of Bohemian Grove the media rarely report on it, and never on the allegations made against it, the police never investigate any of these allegations – in fact the serious allegations are totally dismissed.

I would suggest the key difference here is the fact that BG is the playground of the ruling establishment and not some ordinary dudes and as such they are automatically ‘above the law’ because these people invented law in the first place. Law is not ‘morality’ or ‘justice’ – law is ‘the opinions of the government at any moment in time, backed by violence’.

It should be obvious that we cannot count on ‘law’ (or the media or the police) to uncover crimes committed by the ruling establishment so I don’t understand why you would suggest such a thing. In fact we can pretty much guarantee that those in power will always try to use law to *prevent* any establishment crimes from ever being exposed and brought to justice.

In the UK recently, a sixty six year old man exposing the unlawful cover up of incredibly serious allegations regarding a child abuse ring operating throughout the UK ‘establishment’ was arrested for attempting to hand out leaflets and subsequently banned from entering the constituency where he was standing in the election (in effect he was banned from standing in the election). He was later imprisoned for a year for this ‘breach of the peace’ (ie attempting to hand out leaflets) by a judge with a proven connection to those being accused by the victim and with no jury present in court.

The ‘elite’ do not just evade the law, they use the law as a weapon. The law is, after all, an opinion backed by violence. The law is a weapon. They own and operate this weapon. They do not just ‘evade’ the law, they own and operate the law. Do you see?

Therefore the only thing which can stand up to the law is public opinion and public pressure. This is NOT the same as hysteria or unfounded claims or prejudice or inverted snobbery. But the line between pressure to uncover the truth (‘zero tolerance for the lie’) and unfounded and hysterical allegations is an easy line to cross – especially for the ‘masses’ who can easily be whipped up into irrational hysteria, and in the process steered away from having any kind of useful positive effect. This was the original point I was making (all those years ago now!)

It is therefore vital that those of us with reasonable intelligence and a relatively firm grip on reality (a rare breed thanks to the terrible effects of government education and the media) are always as clear, sober and precise as possible when discussing any of these subjects in public – to the point where no remark can be misconstrued or deliberately twisted.

If we wait for the ‘law’ to uncover any potential crimes and bring these people to justice we will be waiting forever.

We will be waiting even longer if we take the media’s lead and continually dismiss these rulers and big cheeses (often proven mass murderers, let’s not forget) as being ‘colourful characters’ up to the same wacky stuff as the rest of us. Giving proven mass murderers and their friends zero benefit of the doubt when it comes to serious allegations of other crimes (backed up by seemingly credible evidence) is NOT the same as simply making unfounded and hysterical allegations.

What I find astounding about your comments is that you seem to be applying a kind of *positive discrimination* to these people (‘anti hysteria’). IOW because we know they are ‘the mafia’ (and in some case proven mass murderers) we should not even entertain any other allegations of other crimes for fear of being influenced by what we already know about these people. To me this is no different to being hysterical, paranoid, slanderous, conspiracy lunatics. It’s just the opposite extreme.

The analogy I would use is installing spotlights around a warehouse to light up doors and windows which would otherwise be hidden in darkness at night. Let’s say this warehouse is situated on the wrong side of the tracks. Shining a light on these areas night after night is NOT the same as specifically accusing the local community of being thieves. And a security guard walking around shining his flashlight into dark corners and dark alleyways is also not an accusation of any crime, nor is it hysterical or paranoid behaviour.

Public attention and public pressure (‘zero tolerance for the lie’) is no different in this respect. In a world where the few own and control the law and use it against the rest of us every day there simply can’t ever be too much public attention being focused on these people and on these kinds of allegations.

I do believe that the whole BG thing is goofy, and that the description “Burning Man for rich old farts” is a better description than anything I could ever come up with. At the same time, if there is credible evidence that it’s more than that, then of course the rich and well-connected should be subject to the same laws as the rest of us. The key word here is IF.

Let me put it this way: I just got back yesterday from Project: A-KON. I had a great time, even though I ate too-young yogurt and by guts are still letting me know about it. I go every year, have for twelve years, and will for as long as they keep doing it and I am still alive. Does this make me a bad guy, or somebody who shouldn’t be in a position of power? No, of course not. Unless…

It should disqualify me in the minds of enough voters that I have no chance of being elected to anything, IF credible evidence emerges that we are doing something evil, illegal, harmful. This will never happen because I personally had the Three O’Clock Fairy cast the evidence into a black dream hole.

Even without that, it should disqualify me IF I have been promoting myself as a Japan-basher, a youth-culture-basher, a cosplay-basher, an animation-basher. “Vote for me because I want to censor animation, ban the wearing of costumes, I think all the young folks are going to Hell, and I hate everything about or from Japan. Vote for me! Vote for me!” And I go to A-KON every year. No matter how good a job that fairy did, I should be laughed out of the election over that.

“….Council and Panel on Something Vaguely Spooky…”

Then we moved onto:

“….There really is a goofy ritual with a huge stone owl, or rather a fake huge stone owl. Bohemian Grove has been described as “Burning Man for rich old farts…..”

And finally after more ‘tussling’ we ended up at the much more sober and non hysterical:

“…..I find Bohemian Grove disturbing, and the fact that holier-than-thou, I’m-so-Christian politicians attend it and then try to hush it up disgusting. If there is nothing else going on: no rapes, no sex slavery, no child anything, that and that alone is bad enough. If anybody can bring forth credible evidence of the other things (credible evidence, not just saying it or pointing out that bad people aren’t above such things), then I’m all for a full investigation, and the punishing of any guilty parties to the fullest extent the law allows….”

My question is: why did it take so long to get to version three?

If you’re capable of talking about the subject with reason and clarity (which you obviously are – we seem to share the same basic view of BG) why bother with all those throwaway put downs and jibes to begin with?

Surely they just makes it harder for everyone else to figure out whether to take any of this stuff seriously or not – especially if they are completely new to these subjects?

It cuts both ways. Fanatical ‘anti-hysteria’ (it’s all just a ‘goofy ritual’ nothing to worry about) is just as much an obstacle to getting to the truth or to rational thought as fanatical hysteria (all politicians eat babies for breakfast). They are the same thing aren’t they? Equal and opposite types of the same kind of fanaticism…… which was kind of my point to begin with.

1. It’s real. It happens every year.

2. The political, media, corporate, military, industrial ‘elite’ attend, just as they and millions of others attend various things every year. I myself attend, every year, an event which include people in strange costumes, bad (and sometimes surprisingly good, but not from me) singing, expressions of unorthodox philosophies, swords, and dancing.

3. Private meetings of this kind between political people and big business may or may not be illegal. Political people and lobbyists are always meeting, and they seldom go to jail.

4. It was generally hushed up and often denied, until the internet forced it out into the open, yet still the media (some of whose owners attend) avoid reporting on it.

5. It involves elaborate rituals such as the ‘‘cremation of care’ ritual complete with mock sacrifice of a human effigy, which some claim represents a child.

6. It is claimed that all sorts of weird, occultic, perverted sexual stuff goes on, including sexual slavery. Whether this is true or not we don’t know, in part because the people who attend are so secretive. It’s a big claim, and needs more to support it than the fact that it has been claimed.

7. Such evidence is blocked from going to court and being properly tested examined and tested due to the National Security Act. I don’t know about this, but considering everything the NSA has been used to justify, I guess I can’t just dismiss it. Conspiracy theories would gain a lot less traction if people in power didn’t oftentimes act so, well, conspiratorial.

8. A commenter on YouTube referred to Bohemian Grove as “Burning Man for rich old farts,” and I found that this phrase expressed my own feelings better than anything I could come up with. I’ve often found that Neil Diamond or Paul McCartney can express my romantic feelings better than I can, too.

9. What is known without a doubt is that some of our political/ corporate elite have no qualms about slaughtering millions of men, women, children and babies for profit and empire. While many of them seem to be the type who would no scruple to do it on the West Coast, any specific accusations need to be backed up with more than “at least some of them are the sort of person who would do that.”

10. Allegations of child abuse cases or rings seem to follow prominent people everywhere, and are often made by those who dislike the person’s politics, position, religion, business practices, or wealth. Prominent people are always accused of horrible things simply because they are prominent. Sometimes, a prominent person is actually guilty.

11. Just to be clear, you’re repeating point 9.

I find Bohemian Grove disturbing, and the fact that holier-than-thou, I’m-so-Christian politicians attend it and then try to hush it up disgusting. If there is nothing else going on: no rapes, no sex slavery, no child anything, that and that alone is bad enough. If anybody can bring forth credible evidence of the other things (credible evidence, not just saying it or pointing out that bad people aren’t above such things), then I’m all for a full investigation, and the punishing of any guilty parties to the fullest extent the law allows.

So just to summarise what we know about Bohemian Grove.

1. It’s, real. It happens every year.
2. The political, media, corporate, military, industrial ‘elite’ attend.
3. Private meetings of this kind between political people and big business must surely be illegal.
4. It was generally hushed up and often denied, until the internet forced it out into the open, yet still the media (whose owners attend) avoid reporting on it.
5. It involves elaborate rituals such as the ‘‘cremation of care’ ritual complete with mock child sacrifice.
6. Witnesses (alleged sex slaves) such as Cathy O’Brien (see previous links) have submitted evidence of vomit inducing sexual and violent crimes against women and children during the ‘sumer camp’ for pleasure, ritual, initiation and also for blackmail purposes.
7. Such evidence is blocked from going to court and being properly tested examined and tested due to the National Security Act.
8. You view of this ‘summer camp’ seems to be heavily influenced by someone unspecified describing it as a “Burning Man for rich old farts.”
9. What is known without a doubt is that our political/ corporate elite have no qualms about slaughtering millions of men, women, children and babies for profit and empire. Any further crimes of rape and or murder – if they were to be exposed – would not be revealing some shocking new side of their psychological make up. It would come as little surprise.
10. Allegations of child abuse cases or rings seem to follow these elite everywhere, and a case is currently breaking in the UK as we speak so massive and so serious it could potentially bring down half the British establishment.
11. Just to be clear (because the media does tend to desensitise us to these things) many of the men attending these ritual meetings are already responsible for the murder of *millions* of innocent human beings. Some of the Bohemian Grove attendees are already convicted war criminals.

In light of these points alone, all of which I laid out in my other comments, I am baffled by your comment,

“There really is a goofy ritual with a huge stone owl”

Question: isn’t that exactly the same type of reckless, outrageous, unfounded, random, illogical, irresponsible and misleading claim that you ridicule others for making with regards to this whole subject?

To treat this subject as if there’s nothing going on, it’s all worthy of wisecracks and mockery and that it’s not really worth discussing seriously is no different to the stance that every town has a secret satanic baby farming operation in it and ritual slaughter happens every full moon all across the land.

It’s the same basic mindset, just attaching itself to the polar opposite stance, that’s all.

As such your attitude creates just as much of a hindrance to achieving any kind of sober and evidence based grip on these difficult subjects as the people you mock.

One of the worst effects of ‘committed conspiracy theorists’ is that it tends to rally people into the opposite camp to become ‘committed coincidence theorists’…. can’t we just look at reason and evidence with an open and sober mind?